Dyson Quote • s******j@**.com 26/05/1996 00:00:000 UTC POW! Freeman Dyson, on science and education: "So it happened that I belonged to a small minority of boys who were lacking in physical strength and athletic prowess, interested in other things besides football, and squeezed between the twin oppressions of whip and sandpaper. We hated the headmaster with his Latin grammar and we hated even more the boys with their empty football heads. So what could the poor helpless minority of intellectuals, later and in another country to be known as nerds, do to defend ourselves? We found our refuge in a territory that was equally inaccessible to our Latin-obsessed headmaster and our football-obsessed schoolmates. We found our refuge in science. With no help from the school authorities, we founded a science society. As a persecuted minority, we kept a low profile. We held our meetings quietly and inconspicuously. We could do no real experiments. All we could do was share books and explain to each other what we didn't understand. But we learned a lot. Above all, we learned those lessons that can never be taught by formal courses of instruction; that science is a conspiracy of brains against ignorance, that science is a revenge of victims against oppressors, that science is a territory of freedom and friendship in the midst of tyranny and hatred." -- From "To Teach or Not to Teach," 1990 The only thing that scares me: Today, instead of taking refuge in science, nerds are escaping into games or pretend magick. -- +-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-+ ***@***.com ~ s*****s@a*****.***u.edu ~ s******j@**.com http://www.ini.cmu.edu/~sjones/ • j*******i@i*.******m.com 27/05/1996 00:00:000 UTC In <4ob1rq$***@b******.**o.com> s******j@**.com (Stefan E. Jones) writes: >The only thing that scares me: Today, instead of taking refuge in >science, nerds are escaping into games or pretend magick. Not nerds, turncoats. • a****4@f******.********n.ca 27/05/1996 00:00:000 UTC Stefan E. Jones (s******j@**.com) writes: > Freeman Dyson, on science and education: > [Dyson's words sacrificed to the Gods of Bandwidth] > schoolmates. We found our refuge in science. With no help from the school > authorities, we founded a science society. As a persecuted minority, we kept > a low profile. We held our meetings quietly and inconspicuously. We could do > no real experiments. All we could do was share books and explain to each other > what we didn't understand. But we learned a lot. Above all, we learned those > lessons that can never be taught by formal courses of instruction; that > science is a conspiracy of brains against ignorance, that science is a > revenge of victims against oppressors, that science is a territory of freedom > and friendship in the midst of tyranny and hatred." > The only thing that scares me: Today, instead of taking refuge in science, > nerds are escaping into games or pretend magick. Games are the tools for teaching skills. Look at what people are learning from Games: Conflict Resolution, planning, mapping and awareness of previosly covered terretory, money management, strategic planning, etc. As for that Pretend Magick, well, some of it is based in Real Magick (Sorry P.E.I.). I know of at least one magic system that was designed by a well respected member of the OTO. He knows what he speaks of. Besides, Science, esp physics is in some pretty bizzare territory, and the Magickal Worlds have much to teach people about dealing with the recently discovered science. We are on the verge of having Bio-Science that is as strange as anything that we can image...and probably stranger than we can imagine. Isn't it good that we are dealing with the strangness in our games before we have to in real life? ttyl Farrell • s******j@**.com 27/05/1996 00:00:000 UTC In article <4obc8r$***@f******-****.********n.ca>, Farrell McGovern wrote: [Dyson stuff excised -- see my home page ]   >> The only thing that scares me: Today, instead of taking refuge in science,   >> nerds are escaping into games or pretend magick. > Games are the tools for teaching skills. Look at what people are >learning from Games: Conflict Resolution, planning, mapping and awareness >of previosly covered terretory, money management, strategic planning, etc. I used to think the same way. The skills taught by gaming in actuality don't mean squat. The only thing it did for me was get me interested in real science and sociology/anthropology, through a desire to get better at worldbuilding. That has opened up worlds of adventure and intellectual excitement that put anything gaming can deliver to shame. Gaming has become more and more a wussy wish-fulfillment thing for ineffectual adolescents. It COULD be more, but the kids don't want it that way and companies sell 'em what they want. >As for that Pretend Magick, well, some of it is based in Real Magick >(Sorry P.E.I.). I know of at least one magic system that was designed by >a well respected member of the OTO. He knows what he speaks of. "Real Magick" by Isaac Bonewitz? Intricate, self-consistent, superficially scientific, yes; real, no. > Besides, Science, esp physics is in some pretty bizzare territory, >and the Magickal Worlds have much to teach people about dealing with the >recently discovered science. > We are on the verge of having Bio-Science that is as strange as >anything that we can image...and probably stranger than we can imagine. >Isn't it good that we are dealing with the strangness in our games before >we have to in real life? Magick isn't strange, and isn't revealing; it's tropes come from human psychology. What fannish weenies think of as magick was cooked up by dilletantes in the 19th Century. The druids who prance around Stonehenge are about as authentic as Doctor Quinn, Medicine Woman. ESP? "Psionics?" Lots of research, lots of anecdotes, lots of appealing jargon, but nothing real and nothing proven. For every serious researcher in these fields, there are a dozen quacks, nuts, shysters and power-hungry gurus after money and gullible followers to sleep with. It's a shuck; it's EZ-Insights n' Personal Power(tm) for dweebs. You can twist the stuff around and claim that it predicts quantum theory, but it's still sophistry. The Mind is a vast and unexplored territory; but it will not be mapped and explained by weenies. Paranormal research has been around for ages, and it has led nowhere. In that span of time science -- painfully, haltingly, imperfectly -- has revealed a universe immense beyond the dreams of our ancestors, unthinkably ancient, inhuman, strange, and full of wonders. Magic was humanity's first attempt to understand and influence a world that was full of terror and mystery. It had the benefit of reducing the terrors and providing _explanations_, however wrong they were; and it still has the "benefit" today of being EZ to understand. Science and technology fulfill the promise of magic; they provide understandings and power. But the understandings are often not appealing and the power comes at a price. And it requires work and dicipline to fathom these fields; no easy answers from a trade paperback, no dancing around naked and shouting, no funky jewelry to weird out the Mundanes. -- +-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-+ ***@***.com ~ s*****s@a*****.***u.edu ~ s******j@**.com http://www.ini.cmu.edu/~sjones/ • a*******g@i*.******m.com 27/05/1996 00:00:000 UTC In <4ocqk6$***@p*******.**o.com> s******j@**.com (Stefan E. Jones) writes in response to Farrell's defense of gaming: >I used to think the same way. The skills taught by gaming in actuality don't >mean squat. The only thing it did for me was get me interested in real >science and sociology/anthropology, through a desire to get better at >worldbuilding. That has opened up worlds of adventure and intellectual >exitement that put anything gaming can deliver to shame. Stephan has a point. But gamers don't game to learn new skills, they game to have fun. Gaming is a form of escapism: a way to let go and enjoy oneself. People also game as an excuse to get together with friends and have a good time. There's nothing wrong with this and no reason to justify gaming as productive. If gaming does help teach you somthing or get you interested in science, history, etc., that's great. But if you want to learn new things, nothing beats reading a good book or two. However, like anything else, gaming can be abused. People who play games and do little else, are cheating themselves out of a richer, more fulfilling existence. Just like people who just sit around watching TV, or those who overindulge themselves with fantasy novels, dreaming of adventures, but never actually having one. >Gaming has become more and more a wussy wish-fulfillment thing for >ineffectual adolescents. It COULD be more, but the kids don't want it >that way and companies sell 'em what they want. But hasn't gaming for the most part always been "wussy wish-fulfillment". What's the difference between "Lotus, Mox, Channel, Fireball" and "now may 12th level mighty wizard blasts the orks with a lightning bolt"? I think for the most part, "ineffectual adolescents" have always wanted it that way. Think about the pulp sf of the 30's and 40's. For the most part, the emphasis wasn't on developing thinking skills and learning new science, it was on blasting the BEM and getting the girl. Concerning the Dyson Quote itself, I believe that one might compare their activities to high school computer clubs or film groups. Such organization and teen-agers with the drive to become involved have always, unfortunatly, been few and far between. In sum, there's nothing wrong with gaming. It doesn't require any merit other than being enjoyable. However, like anything else that's fun, it can be overdone. As to what "overdone" entails, I'm sure somebody will answer the question for me. -Tony Cashier: "Would you like fries with that?" Customer: "The Fries are to the burger as the stars are to the sands of time" Cashier: Uh...ok, but would you like fries with your meal? Customer: "Once the meal has begun, it is too late for the pickles to vote." Cashier: "FRENCH FRIES, With you meal?" Customer: "Only with the fries can the burger sing." Cashier: "Aaaggggggggg!!!" -Kosh goes to McDonalds or -Why there are so few Vorlon • y******d@p******y.com 27/05/1996 00:00:000 UTC To Quote Oscar Wilde: (Well paraphrase actually, I left the book in the car...) Football is a game suited to brutish girls not at all appropriate for delicate boys... -Archaeology: More than just a hole in the ground. J*******o@p******y.com J*******O@i*.******b.edu Jill Rappaport