Independence Day (spoilers) • m*******e@a****.***u.edu 20/07/1996 00:00:000 UTC There were a number of problems with the moon scene at the beginning: * With no air to carry vibrations, the Moon shouldn't have shaken. (Of course, you might explain this away as moon quakes due to tidal stresses from the mother ship.) * Given the phase of the Earth as shown from the moon, all of the Apollo landing sites would have been in darkness. * From the orientation of the dark part of the Earth and the distance of Earth above the horizon, one can deduce that the viewpoint was at a fairly high latitude (maybe 75 degrees north or south) and close to the moon's central meridian as seen from Earth. There are no Apollo landing sites at those locations. Also, * The mother ship does not collapse under its own gravitational pull. * The mother ship survives well within the Earth's Roche limit. * There are no apparent tidal effects on the Earth despite the close proximity of one quarter lunar mass. * A downed saucer sticks out of the ground at an angle without breaking apart under the gravitational stresses (they must use a really incredible building material; note that the *blecchh!* Voyager has the same problem when landing on a planet -- the warp pods and saucer should break off and fall to the ground). --- Brian P.S. It is left as an exercise for the student to determine when the moon will next be at a thin crescent phase on July 2. • a****4@f******.********n.ca 20/07/1996 00:00:000 UTC Brian McGuinness (m*******e@a****.***u.edu) writes: > There were a number of problems with the moon scene at the beginning: > * With no air to carry vibrations, the Moon shouldn't have shaken. (Of course, > you might explain this away as moon quakes due to tidal stresses from the > mother ship.) They obviously use some sort of gravity drive...that's how they hover without a whole bunch of jets/rockets/etc firing. It's obiously not well tuned, since there is a great deal of wasted energy...which causes the vibrations. > * The mother ship does not collapse under its own gravitational pull. > * The mother ship survives well within the Earth's Roche limit. > * There are no apparent tidal effects on the Earth despite the close proximity > of one quarter lunar mass. See above. > * A downed saucer sticks out of the ground at an angle without breaking apart > under the gravitational stresses (they must use a really incredible building > material; note that the *blecchh!* Voyager has the same problem when landing > on a planet -- the warp pods and saucer should break off and fall to the > ground). Voyager has both artificial gravity and structural integrety fields...Most Starship design in the Star Trek universe is governed by the shape of the warp field. And the field is not sphereical, other wise the Federation ships would look like Pupeteer #3 hulls painted over. ttyl Farrell • a*******g@i*.******m.com 22/07/1996 00:00:000 UTC Spoiler Alert: You wrote: >There were a number of problems with the moon scene at the beginning: etc. etc. I've always found it interesting when people point out flaws/inconsistencies in films, particularly science fiction films. Since the point of the film is entertainment rather than accuracy it might stand to reason the film-maker take liberties with the science. The moon shot was included to show the great power of the aliens - how they just brush aside mankind's own feeble endeavors to reach into space. The drama of the shot was more important to the director than it���s realism. Knowing Brian, his post was more tongue-in-cheek than serious. But it also raises a question: do technical types really enjoy films less when there are errors of this sort? What about suspension of disbelief. Can���t it just be assumed that the aliens some sort of weird technology that causes the moon to shake? And, if we can believe the President is a former jet pilot from the Gulf War, can���t we make a small allowance for the incorrect phase of the moon? Technical types aren���t the only ones irked by film accuracy. I personally, saw ID4 as less of an invasion film and more as an exercise in poor resource management on the part of the aliens: "Well ZocMork, your mission is to invade the Earth. We will give you a budget of ���1 Trillion Glicknars. How do you propose to carry our your mission?" "Well Sir, I���m thinking spaceships���.BIG spaceships. And we can use the patented new National Landmark-Distructo-Ray���. Yeah, that���s the ticket." All I want to know is who designed the mothership anyway. They must have bought it cheap at the bankruptcy auction of the company that designed the Death Star. -Tony "I want a national landmark-distructo-ray" • j********o@***.com 22/07/1996 00:00:000 UTC In article <4spr40$***@g*****.***u.edu>, m*******e@a****.***u.edu (Brian McGuinness) writes: >note that the *blecchh!* Voyager has the same problem when landing > on a planet -- the warp pods and saucer should break off and fall to the > ground). Haven't seen the movie yet (usually just getting to sleep by the matinee show-time), but Brian is being a bit picky about building materials on the Wimp-Trek "Blunderer." Unless Brian's assuming there's ultra-dense matter in the pods, there's no reason a building couldn't be designed with such a form with 20th Century materials. Just because NASA builds probes gossamer-light and flimsy, there's no reason the Feds would build war-ships (or what passes for them in fairy-land) that way. We know the ship is built to land: if you consider the sort of overhangs in a jet-liner, it's hardly a stretch that it can keep together, especially as we see the ships withstanding jolts at least strong enough to toss people around the bridge. And, of course, they have artificial gravity, perimeter shielding, SI fields, and acceleration dampers, as well as plain-old futuristic materials... The show still sucks, of course. When the were promising to kill of a "major character," around here, we were whimsically hoping it would be Momma Smurf. Momma Smurf is always right, and when the foolish little Smurfs stray, they come back with their heads bowed in shame. "This just goes to show that my absurd and inflexible ideas were correct from the start!" "We're sorry, Momma Smurf..." "Now, let's go risk the ship to save a space amoeba!" (A classic example of the PC inversion of Star Trek's mind-set: instead of a hostile wilderness, space is a garden, where ignorant humanity disrupts the delicate chain of being.) At least Picard (Papa Smurf) was irritated at the universe (his chief emotion as an actor seemed to be constipation, which is unfortunate, since Patrick Stewart seems to be a pretty cool guy!): Janeway just looks down her nose at the universe. Janeway: "I refuse to accept that!" Tuvok: "Under Article 7, Paragraph 2 of the StarFleet Uniform Code, I hereby relieve you of command on the basis of insanity." Crew: "Hurray!" Tuvok: "Futhermore, I sentence you to death by phaser, to be carried out in five standard minutes on the hanger deck." Crew: "Hurray!!" More random grousing: At least "B5" has gotten this hocus-pocus/time-travel/destiny garbage out of the way... "'JMS' says that it's not about the war." I say it should be (and so did he, in TV Guide not so long ago!) Tolkien is Tolkien, Star Wars is Star Wars: B5 should try to be semi-hard SF, and leave the Gypsy fortune telling and Rings of Power behind for good. I'm getting sick of this Tolkien-esque hero worship: wars are fought by fleets and armies, not a handful of heroes. (oh, and of course, _all_ the "Gropos" they got to know got killed! Wouldn't it have been more interesting if we'd found them among their fallen comrades at the end, eating K-rations and bitching about their pay grade?) And they need to get a sense of technological proportion, viz a vis the Shadows, Vorlons, Mimbari, and everybody else: a thousand ants aren't much use in a war between giants! "They doing it to become _more like_ the Shadows!" If that's what it takes to win, you bet your ass! God, I hope I live to see a loyal Earth Alliance ship burn a few Mimbari cruisers out of the sky... but "JMS"'d never have the cahones for that. Good guy and heroes on our side, bad guys over there. Then there's the "everyone in the club-house reacts the same" syndrome: the characters don't have to be at each other's throats, but they could react to things differently, disagree strenuously and inconclusively (like, say, on old Trek). I sure wish someone would tell Dilenn off already: "I'm sorry, you seem to be mistaking me for someone who gives a damn about your slag customs!" "We have our own God, Dilenn, and our is real." "Dilenn, I'm a professional soldier. Fighting, killing, and destroying is my job, so quit it with the 'time of darkness' crap! To me, this is the Golden Age of Glory. We are life-takers and heart-breakers. Hoo-Rah!!" And the Vorlons too: "I don't know if you've devolved beyond speech, you riddle-chanting freak, but if you don't give me a straight answer, right now, this station is switching sides." And that goes double for the sucky new uniforms: doofy dresses for the senior staff, cheezy jump-suits for everyone else. No understanding of the military mind at all. "Yes, Sir, I agree completely, but I will Not abandon my uniform!" "Teach me how to fight the Shadows." "In time, Luke, but first you must learn the ways of the Force..." The correct answer would be: "The newly discovered U-276 Shadow vessel class (see Diagram 212), code named "Oberon," builds upon the U-265 "Glory" design contacted at the Battle of 253 Pegasus. Intelligence suggests that a more sophisticated sub-harmonic damping system has been added in an attempt to increase vessel agility, but that serious maintenance problems have developed due to supply bottlenecks following the destruction of enemy facilities at 28 Pisces last year. Furthermore, lack of confidence, apparently undeserved, in the design has contributed to a general neglect of its upkeep. The appearance of this vessel in a formation may indicate a minimal priority mission, and enemy underconfidence should be exploitable in attacking such formations. The most efficient attack mode against the U-276 would appear to be Beckle's Cape-Dog hounding approach, which should deplete target energy reserves in preparation for close submunition attack, which should be optimized by using standard pinwheel-net formation. Capture of design examples should not be prioritized. Next, examine Diagram 54: Ultrasound damped Plaser rifle. This is the enemy's primary heavy infantry weapon: it is considerably more powerful than EA equivalent (R-20A), but runs hot and can not be fired continuously for extended periods. This weakness may be exploited by forcing enemy troops to expend constant suppression fire, pausing as a feint, then renewing assault with concentrated fire..." etc.,... Oh well... as the song goes, "Why can't a 'B5' be more like a Space!" Gorno Oh, if you want to see something Really scary... Look at the cover of the latest TV Guide while covering the top two inches... hmmm... Then uncover the top of the page... Yeesh!