The Matrix - Spoilers • j********o@***.com 18/04/1999 00:00:000 UTC SPOILERS . . . . . .. . . . . . .. . . . . . . . . . . .. . .. ... . . .. .. Obviously, the "battery" thing was absurd, but I'm willing to substitute human brains as providing processing power to "It" (the global AI). This also lends itself to certain interesting interpretations I'll mention later. It seemed as if the Agent that Trinity killed on the rooftop came back later. Is this because they just look alike, or did his program survive and get reinstalled in a new shell? (It seems to me that there must be an interface layer or shell that literally embodies the latent self image - thus, weapons, etc., can be attached to this shell in the loading area and persist in the matix.) What happens when Agents get activated? It seems like the people they transform from aren't happy with the process: my guess is that they aren't aware of not being human until they get activated and the Agent intelligence takes over their matrix shell or virtual body (they don't ever seem to self-activate: another agent always calls the request in). There seemed to be a very high density of Agents in the apartment complex at the end: perhaps when they're really pressed, they can call for back-up and either have inactive Agents inserted into settings or active ones into the shells of real people (if the rebels were wrong in interpreting them as being disguised as people, this could be the general case). I would have liked a less mushy explanation of Neo's survival in the final battle, like if he'd opened his eyes on the couch and observed that "They aren't *real* bullets, Trinity." Then if he'd turned that fusilade into bent spoons, it would have been a cute tie-in. And what really happened at the end? I wish they'd been more explicit, for example, showing perhaps that Neo had infiltrated and subverted Smith's program and shell, subsuming him. I really liked Smith's dissatisfaction: the Agents are the real prisoners, mental intelligences trapped in a virtual physical world (at least humans were meant to live like that). Smith is fooling himself if he thinks It could care less about him or will let the Agents "out" if they destroy Zion. They seemed pretty clear that It is more or less unitary: there is a global machine intelligence that doesn't desire company - the Agents are only *virtual* programs running *inside* the Matrix; they have some perks, but must ask a higher agency (another VI, I bet) to get a significant change made. As for Squiddies, they seem to be autonomous (although not necessarily very smart): my take on It is that It spends its time contemplating its perfection and uses various inferior AI's to run all day-to-day operations - one wouldn't expect a callous machine to feel any greater concern for AI's than for humans! Reviews had given away the basic plot (with some confusion: one reviewer thought the hovership was a time-machine!) but I was still surprised: I didn't expect a Terminatoresque post-apocalyptic machine-world with humans in grotesque pods. Cool. I expected them to be lone freedom-fighters living in the back alleys: the fact that they travel in a vessel, as well as the (unseen) existence of Zion and other ships were pleasant surprises that literally open up dramatic space for plot developments and sequels. I'm sorry all those characters got killed (Switch was cute; the delectable Carrie-Anne Moss didn't get to show off her smile much though). Smith's revelation of the first, idylic Matrix was very interesting: even as it is, humanity seemed to be quite content in their pods and many techno-types might see their world as a utopia, aside from the fact that they're stuck in a prior century, technologically. That may very well be how things wind up! (I've envisioned an RPG where clueless pod-living characters are forced to leave and might buy macho survival skills like "Knowledge That People Can Drown.") The instant learning was another cool and unexpected element. There seem to be several levels of awakeness in the story. I don't think that the Oracle and those kids in her waiting room were outside on other ships, as they seemed fully integrated (she lived there and baked cookies) and in no hurry to jack out. I guess Neo had made himself a target with his computer hacking, and Morpheus himself was sure that Neo was the promised One, and his extraction was exceptional. So, I guess the Oracle et al had never really been in the real world, but had been told about it and encouraged to develop their virtual abilities. Who (or what) is the Oracle? I'd accept such a small dose of mysticism, but there are other intriguing possibilities: with all of humanity connected, she could be in touch with or be merely a virtual projection of a collective sub-conscious; or she could be either a rogue or accidental VI - either way, she could have the ability to predict or arrange future events. There are many delicious possibilities for conflict between various levels of VI's: subcomponents of larger intelligences might work against their own higher consciousness. A great deal of potential and variety is possible. I don't feel that It lives in or even cares about goings-on in the Matrix: as a corillary, there should be a whole other realm of cyberspace where It lives. (There might in fact be alternate human worlds, although this contradicts Smith's observations and doesn't really appeal to me; there could certainly be several levels of cyberspace and/or sensoria inhabited by various species of VI's, where intrepid characters might explore). Returning to Neo's possible infiltration of Agent Smith, could the reverse occur? Might a VI download itself into a human body (perhaps after virtual death?) This could produce interesting alternate character types, be they rouges or infiltrators (in order to reach Zion, the latter would might have to help the human crew attack It and its machinations). Getting back to the proposal that It uses its human captives as processors or idea generators suggests several thoughts. The Matrix itself might be run primarily by human minds! Once the rules are established, our own brains would enforce the virtual reality. This makes it more plausable that reality could be manipulated in the Matrix. If we draw upon the dubious old trope that humans only use a fraction of their brain power, It may be activating and using this latent capacity. A rare brain like Neo's might be able to tap into and steal back this capacity to get abnormal control over the interface and/or virtual environment. Finally, humans in (and maintaining) the Matrix might have less intelligence left to their own use, and may, resultingly, operate at a much slower pace: "bullet time" (TM) may simply be how the Matrix looks to a mind that has reclaimed its full processing speed! The Matrix can even be integrated with the Terminator series! (See my simultaneous post on those movies.) It could be a prequel timeline that ends with a trip back that causes the creation of Skynet instead, or we could somehow connect it to the original timeline where a component or latter-day incarnation of Skynet escapes underground, or it could be associated with the final timeline, in which It arrives long after Skynet is prevented. There could be a Terminator-style battle for the surface that It and Zion don't even know about! Coolness, Ja? Now that's a role-playing scenario. In article <3*******.********D@l********g.net>, John Reddy writes: >As far as the RPG aspect, this would definitely work well as a Whitewolf Mage >game. Standard humanity vrs. technocracy, with the good guys some kind of >cross between Akashic and Virtual Adepts. I'm more interested in the real world, so I was thinking more along the lines of "Zero" meets the Terminator, but Skip makes a good point. Paradox is an applicable concept, as people and the Matrix itself can only accept or allow so much that is unbelievable. Gorno • MC 900 Foot Bloodthirster 26/04/1999 00:00:000 UTC JohnGorno wrote in message news:1*************.*****.********4@n*****.***.***.... > SPOILERS > . > . > . > . > . > .. > . > . > . > . > . > .. > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > .. > . > .. > ... > . > . > .. > .. > Obviously, the "battery" thing was absurd, but I'm willing to substitute human > brains as providing processing power to "It" (the global AI). This also lends > itself to certain interesting interpretations I'll mention later. The movie had its share of idiosyncracies. Thankfully they can be ignored for a time as the pace keeps you sucked along with the action. > It seemed as if the Agent that Trinity killed on the rooftop came back later. > Is this because they just look alike, or did his program survive and get > reinstalled in a new shell? (It seems to me that there must be an interface > layer or shell that literally embodies the latent self image - thus, weapons, > etc., can be attached to this shell in the loading area and persist in the > matix.) What happens when Agents get activated? It seems like the people they > transform from aren't happy with the process: my guess is that they aren't > aware of not being human until they get activated and the Agent intelligence > takes over their matrix shell or virtual body (they don't ever seem to > self-activate: another agent always calls the request in). There seemed to be > a very high density of Agents in the apartment complex at the end: perhaps > when they're really pressed, they can call for back-up and either have inactive > Agents inserted into settings or active ones into the shells of real people (if > the rebels were wrong in interpreting them as being disguised as people, this > could be the general case). It's a shame we don't get more of a look at how exactly the AIs and humans interact with the Matrix in specific, just for ease of adaptation to rpgs. Your guesses seem logical. I was very happy with the degree of menace conveyed by the Agents, and with the amount of humor the main Agent actor brought to the role. (I couldn't help but laugh at his diction and mannerisms every time he appeared, and it didn't detract from the movie at all, for me.) The evil, implacable Man in Black as program construct is the neatest rationale for their traditional anal-retentive behavior I've run across yet. > I would have liked a less mushy explanation of Neo's survival in the final > battle, like if he'd opened his eyes on the couch and observed that "They > aren't *real* bullets, Trinity." Everyone I spoke to who's seen the film was disappointed with the typical "love conquers all," ending. I've since tricked myself past it; possibly Neo was finally "enlightened," and could ignore his own biofeedback, and the timing was just such to be saccharine, or possibly the nearness of a woman while he was having a near-death experience with little real physical cause jumpstarted his endocrine system and helped bring him to consciousness. Still cheesy, but plausible. Then if he'd turned that fusilade into bent > spoons, it would have been a cute tie-in. I fully expected him to leap off the ground and scream, "THERE IS NO SPOON!" And what really happened at the end? > I wish they'd been more explicit, for example, showing perhaps that Neo had > infiltrated and subverted Smith's program and shell, subsuming him. Hm, I never thought of that. The wrap up was jarring, now that you mention it. I really > liked Smith's dissatisfaction: the Agents are the real prisoners, mental > intelligences trapped in a virtual physical world (at least humans were meant > to live like that). Smith is fooling himself if he thinks It could care less > about him or will let the Agents "out" if they destroy Zion. They seemed > pretty clear that It is more or less unitary: there is a global machine > intelligence that doesn't desire company - the Agents are only *virtual* > programs running *inside* the Matrix; they have some perks, but must ask a > higher agency (another VI, I bet) to get a significant change made. I loved Smith snapping. Actually, I liked most of Smith's scenes, but the idea of an AI developing its own, alien brand of neuroses from contact with people really amused me. As for > Squiddies, they seem to be autonomous (although not necessarily very smart): > my take on It is that It spends its time contemplating its perfection and uses > various inferior AI's to run all day-to-day operations - one wouldn't expect a > callous machine to feel any greater concern for AI's than for humans! What *does* the leader AI/ruling class/whatever do with itself? Who/what is the Oracle? People have ventured suggestions ranging from the possibility that she's just another gifted person like Morpheus or Neo, using knowledge of Matrix behavior and elementary social engineering to "predict" for the revolution (what better way to predict the future you want then to subtly convince others to act that way -- although we do see her accuracy in some small things), to a rogue AI, far more dysfunctional in their "eyes" than Smith, that "feels" we deserve another chance. (They'd better have some damn good stochastic models for either to be true.) Sequel? > Reviews had given away the basic plot (with some confusion: one reviewer > thought the hovership was a time-machine!) but I was still surprised: I didn't > expect a Terminatoresque post-apocalyptic machine-world with humans in > grotesque pods. Cool. I expected them to be lone freedom-fighters living in > the back alleys: the fact that they travel in a vessel, as well as the > (unseen) existence of Zion and other ships were pleasant surprises that > literally open up dramatic space for plot developments and sequels. I was very happy to see that the villain was not the typical cyberpunk type. Surprised the hell out of me too. The reviewers held just enough back for a change. I'm sorry > all those characters got killed (Switch was cute; the delectable Carrie-Anne > Moss didn't get to show off her smile much though). Smith's revelation of the > first, idylic Matrix was very interesting: even as it is, humanity seemed to > be quite content in their pods and many techno-types might see their world as a > utopia, aside from the fact that they're stuck in a prior century, > technologically. That may very well be how things wind up! (I've envisioned > an RPG where clueless pod-living characters are forced to leave and might buy > macho survival skills like "Knowledge That People Can Drown.") The instant > learning was another cool and unexpected element. *rofl* Skillsofts are a semi-common cyberpunk device. What struck me as innovative about their runs into the matrix and their use of skill databases was the use of a central overseer of the operation who could also upload them knowledge while they were "out." If I end up in a Shadowrun game again I want to try to coordinate something similar. > There seem to be several levels of awakeness in the story. I don't think that > the Oracle and those kids in her waiting room were outside on other ships, as > they seemed fully integrated (she lived there and baked cookies) and in no > hurry to jack out. Yeah... As I said, I'm still kind of confused about what's actually going on with her. I guess Neo had made himself a target with his computer > hacking, and Morpheus himself was sure that Neo was the promised One, and his > extraction was exceptional. So, I guess the Oracle et al had never really been > in the real world, but had been told about it and encouraged to develop their > virtual abilities. Who (or what) is the Oracle? I'd accept such a small dose > of mysticism, but there are other intriguing possibilities: with all of > humanity connected, she could be in touch with or be merely a virtual > projection of a collective sub-conscious; or she could be either a rogue or > accidental VI - either way, she could have the ability to predict or arrange > future events. There are many delicious possibilities for conflict between > various levels of VI's: subcomponents of larger intelligences might work > against their own higher consciousness. A great deal of potential and variety > is possible. I should have scrolled down before bringing up the Oracle... Wow. We have an action movie, flashy as ever, with great potential for a sequel that doesn't just rehash the first flick. I get more impressed by this movie the more I hear people's thoughts on it. > I don't feel that It lives in or even cares about goings-on in the Matrix: as > a corillary, there should be a whole other realm of cyberspace where It lives. > (There might in fact be alternate human worlds, although this contradicts > Smith's observations and doesn't really appeal to me; there could certainly be > several levels of cyberspace and/or sensoria inhabited by various species of > VI's, where intrepid characters might explore). Returning to Neo's possible > infiltration of Agent Smith, could the reverse occur? Might a VI download > itself into a human body (perhaps after virtual death?) This could produce > interesting alternate character types, be they rouges or infiltrators (in order > to reach Zion, the latter would might have to help the human crew attack It and > its machinations). > Getting back to the proposal that It uses its human captives as processors or > idea generators suggests several thoughts. The Matrix itself might be run > primarily by human minds! Once the rules are established, our own brains would > enforce the virtual reality. This makes it more plausable that reality could > be manipulated in the Matrix. If we draw upon the dubious old trope that > humans only use a fraction of their brain power, It may be activating and using > this latent capacity. A rare brain like Neo's might be able to tap into and > steal back this capacity to get abnormal control over the interface and/or > virtual environment. Finally, humans in (and maintaining) the Matrix might > have less intelligence left to their own use, and may, resultingly, operate at > a much slower pace: "bullet time" (TM) may simply be how the Matrix looks to a > mind that has reclaimed its full processing speed! > The Matrix can even be integrated with the Terminator series! (See my > simultaneous post on those movies.) It could be a prequel timeline that ends > with a trip back that causes the creation of Skynet instead, or we could > somehow connect it to the original timeline where a component or latter-day > incarnation of Skynet escapes underground, or it could be associated with the > final timeline, in which It arrives long after Skynet is prevented. There > could be a Terminator-style battle for the surface that It and Zion don't even > know about! Coolness, Ja? Now that's a role-playing scenario. > In article <3*******.********D@l********g.net>, John Reddy > writes: > >As far as the RPG aspect, this would definitely work well as a Whitewolf Mage > >game. Standard humanity vrs. technocracy, with the good guys some kind of > >cross between Akashic and Virtual Adepts. > I'm more interested in the real world, so I was thinking more along the lines > of "Zero" meets the Terminator, but Skip makes a good point. Paradox is an > applicable concept, as people and the Matrix itself can only accept or allow so > much that is unbelievable. > Gorno I wonder what would happen if Neo's bunch were to do something that would invoke much Paradox in the Mage game? ("Godzilla sighted in Times Square at high noon. Film at 11.") Would people end up core dumping themselves, as they did in the first Matrix utopia? Hm. Interested parties may want to go to whatisthematrix.com. Original comics and stories in the Matrix universe are there for free download. Wonder if a company that's NOT West End will end up buying the license for an rpg? BRI(tm) • j********o@***.com 16/05/1999 00:00:000 UTC Just saw it again (I took my Mom to see before Star Wars can drive it away - she really liked it, naturally) and noticed a variety of things I should have noticed before. It's clear that the agents can and do indeed have themselves inserted into regular people - they seem to need to steal the basic interface and use this as a form of teleportation. This also explains an odd scene where Neo is fleeing, sees a crowd ahead, and curses his bad luck, whereupon an Agent promptly appears out of the mass. This also suggests the nature of Neo's final attack on Smith. The Woman in Red scenario is what threw me off: it implied that Agents were *disguised* or somehow latent. We don't see what happens to and Agent's previous vessel when he jumps out - I suppose the person might be killed when they take over, but I'm more inclined to believe that he just wakes up baffled... maybe even at home the next day, like Neo after his weird visitations. I may have been deluded about the putative "It:" they explain that the first unitary AI spawned a whole race of robots. The Oracle is described as "very old," but doesn't look that old. I had the amusing thought that Smith's delusion about being let "out," especially given his neurosis, could actually be fulfilled in only one special place on Earth: Zion's mainframe! He should try to break in and, if successful, fight like crazy to defend the city from his erstwhile masters! BRI made a point about "There is no spoon," which I had not noticed Neo actually says when he shoots the elevator cable. I love the bit where Neo is absent-mindedly fighting one-handed as he spaces out. Gorno "Can you fly a helicopter?" "Not yet..." • j********o@***.com 18/05/1999 00:00:000 UTC Regarding the trope that people die when their virtual bodies get killed: perhaps the humans of that day have been genetically or surgically altered to have a kill switch. Maybe if they could jack a natural-born human in, he'd be invulnerable... Gorno